Hi Linda.

Quick question for you.

Does Elizabeth's marriage certificate for 1893 state if she was divorced or a widow?
This will assist with further searches.

Hi
I dont have a marriage cert for this one. only an ancestry.com verification
I will look at getting a copy. thanks
Linda

Thanks Linda.

I'm a bit confused here.

Arthur SMITH and Elizabeth HALEY had their last child in Benella in 1886, and you mention here that Arthur SMITH may have died in 1885.

Would this be the Arthur SMITH that died 1885 in Prahran, Victoria, aged 30 years, with no parents named?

I could not locate a death for Arthur SMITH that died in 1931.
Do you have the place of death for this Arthur SMITH in 1931?

There were a few Elizabeth SMITHs married in 1893.
Do you have the name of Elizabeth's second husband?

A few more details will assist other members willing to assist you with your research.

Cheers.

Sorry about the confusion.
Arthur and Elizabeth had my GGgrandmother in 1886 Lilian Smith
There is a death of a Arthur Smith that you have mentioned in Prahran
but his occupation is Groom/Gardner and solicitors for probate at that time could find no next of kin for him. Arthur was a businessman and would have carried ID I would have thought.

The Arthur Smith died in 1931 in Benalla but I am sure if he lived in the same town as his children you would think he would have visited them?
Elizabeth married Rowland William Hughes in Wangaratta Victoria Australia

Maybe they got the Arthur Smiths in Melbourne occupation wrong and maybe I will never be able to solve this problem.
Sorry for the inconveninace and my lack of experiance in this family tree search.
Regards Linda

No inconvenience Linda.

Could be the Arthur SMITH that died in Prahran in 1885 was not him.

I will have another look for this Arthur SMITH that died in Benalla in 1931 tomorrow as I may have missed him.

Thanks very much any help I can get is greatly appreciated, even if its a second opinion it just gives me that bit of confidence
Regards Linda

If any Arthur SMITHs died in Benalla in 1931 it was not recorded in the Victorian death records.

I also looked at the Benella Cemetery records. There are lots of SMITHs buried there, but no Arthur.

I'm interested to know where you obtained the death of Arthur from?
It may be your source is wrong.

I will look into it tommorrow, I am sure I got it off ancestry so it is possible I took the information without checking it, when I started I was just happy to get information now I look into it a bit more.
I will post what I find
Thanks
Linda

Hi
I have looked through the other 6 trees that have Arthur brumby smith in it and found 2 with death in benalla 1885 and 2 with death showing in 1931 benalla and 1 with death 1931 Melbourne. There is also another that has the place of death in NZ but no place or date. None of whom have any historical evidence for the death record. This may be one of those thing that I will never have an answer for dont you hate that!
If you can think of anything eles I could do I would really appricate it.
Linda

Thanks Linda.

It appears Arthur died in a lot of places at different times, and no one has any confirmation of the correct death.

I think the Arthur that died in Prahran in 1885 needs to be looked at again. The informant could not name Arthur's parents, but gave his age as 30 years. I'm now wondering if this Arthur was married, and if so, was his wife and children named on his death certificate. The death certificate would be a gamble, but it may tell you if it is the correct Arthur. It appears to me no one has bother to obtain his death certificate to date.

Do you know the date of death for this Arthur that died in Prahran in 1885.

I'm still trying to find a few more details and will get back to you.

Had a look at the probate for Arthur SMITH.
He died 21 January 1885.
The probate was granted 28 September 1885.
His residence was given as Williams Road, Prahran.
Ref: PRO.V File 30/423.

Arthur's date of death means he could not be the father of Lilian SMITH born in Benella in 1886.

This does not mean it's not the Arthur SMITH we are looking for. It only means he could not be the father of Lilian.

Also looking at the Birth, Marriage and Death for Valeria SMITH or HUGHES.

BIRTH.

Name: Valeria SMITH.
Born: 1893 Wahgunyah, Victoria.
Father: Arthur SMITH.
Mother: Elizabeth HALEY.
Ref: VBI #8175.

MARRIAGE.

Groom: Rowland William HUGHES.
Birth place: Greta.

Bride: Valeria HUGHES.
Birth place: Victoria.

Year married: 1923.
Place: Victoria.
Ref: VMI #6990.

DEATH.

Name: Valeria HUGHES.
Died: 1977 Benella, Victoria.
Age: 84 years.
Father: Rowland HUGHES.
Mother: Elizabeth HALEY.
Ref: VDI #11118.

We now have two different fathers named for Valeria's birth and death, and I expect her father named on her marriage certificate was Rowland HUGHES.

We also know Elizabeth remarried in 1893 to Rowland William HUGHES, the same year as Valeria's birth.

So, who was the father of Valeria?

If Arthur was her father it means he was still alive in 1892/93.

Back to the records.

wow, that is amazing. My mind is still spinning. Looks like I need to get a death cert for Arthur in Prahran 1885. I have printed out an application form so will get that underway. Should I also apply for Elizabeths marriage to Rowland to see if she was a widow or divorced?
You have been so helpful I was just floundering around wondering what to do next!
I presume you are just a fellow geneolgist that finds the time to help others.
Are you also in australia?
Anyway thank you for all you work.
I hope you find more, I have no idea how to get probate records etc
Hope to hear from you soon
Linda

Thanks Linda.

I'm just one of the many members trying to assist other members like you find answers. And yes I live in Australia, the land down under.

As I said, the death certificate for this Arthur is a gamble. If he is the correct Arthur and the informant named his wife and children you will know for sure, but if his wife and children are not named it will not confirm if he is the correct Arthur.

I think the marriage certificate for Elizabeth and Rowland would give better value for money information wise ... if Elizabeth is honest with her answers of course.
Go for the marriage certificate. You can always obtain the death certificate once a few more details are confirmed.

The Probate can be obtained from the Public Record Office in North Melbourne. The Probate will not confirm if he is the correct Arthur.

I will keep looking.

Thank you
I will apply for the marriage cert for Elizabeth and Rowland
Will let you know
Your work is invaluable
Linda

While the certificate is winging it's way to you we can collect a few more details for Arthur's family. I don't know if this is the correct birth for Arthur but it's a start.

Arthur's BIRTH.

Name: Arthur Brumby SMITH.
Born: 1856 Prahran, Victoria.
Father: Edward SMITH.
Mother: Mahalia MOSS.

Ref: VBI #4176.

Arthur's MARRIAGE.

Groom: Arthur Bromley SMITH.
Birth place: Given as South Yarra.

Bride: Elizabeth HALEY.
Birth place: Given as Plenty River.

Year married: 1878.
Place: Victoria.

Ref: VMI #2519.

Note the second given names 'Brumby' and 'Bromley' for Arthur.

These are Arthur and Elizabeth's children as recorded in the Victorian births.
These details will assist other researches.


BIRTHS.

Name: George Henry SMITH.
Born: 1879 Benella, Victoria.
Father: Arthur Bromby SMITH.
Mother: Elizabeth HALEY.
- Ref: VBI #700.

Name: Olivia Maria SMITH.
Born: 1881 Benella, Victoria.
Father: Arthur Bromby SMITH.
Mother: Elizabeth HALEY.
- Ref: VBI #7211.

Name: Arthur Harry SMITH.
Born: 1883 Benella, Victoria.
Father: Arthur Brumly SMITH.
Mother: Elizabeth HALEY.
- Ref: VBI #21539.

Name: Lilian SMITH.
Born: 1886 Benella, Victoria.
Father: Arthur Bromby SMITH.
Mother: Elizabeth HALEY.
- VBI #8078.

Name: Valeria SMITH.
Born: 1893 Wahgunyah, Victoria.
Father: Arthur SMITH.
Mother: Elizabeth HALEY.
- Ref: VBI #8175.

We still don't know for sure if Arthur was Valeria's father.
It's possible the informant gave the wrong father's name when registering the birth.

Arthur's second given name now appears as Bromby and Brumly. Bromby seems to come up the most. Could be the Brumby recorded at birth should have been Bromby. Nothing to worry about, but it's good to keep these things in mind when searching the records.

All the information you have so far is correct, Arthur Brumby Smith was named after his grandmother Margaret Brumby born 1793 in Scotton England
I have the birth cert for Lilian born 1886 and it states the father as Arthur but Elizabeth registered the birth and didnt mention Arthur being deceased.
I wait for the marriage cert with anticipation!
Linda

I have the marriage cert and it shows Elizabeth as a widow 10/5/1892
I dont have an exact birth time for Valeria but 1893 and Elizabeth and Rowland married on the 30 November 1893. So it would seem that Elizabeth may have been pregnant or had Valeria before the marriage.
I can not find a death for Arthur brumby Smith even with this new date.
Not sure where to look now!!
Linda

You could ring the cemetery at Benalla.
I know a lot of their old records were eaten by termites but you might be lucky.
The number I have for them is 03 57625429.

Thank you I will get in touch with them in the morning
sounds like you have had to do the same for your tree!
I hate having gaps in my records so it woud be nice to get
it settled.
thank you again
Linda

Have been in contact with the Benalla Cemetery but no records for my Arthur,
it may be that he died around 1890 not 1892 as the records for that time have been destroyed by termites!
The search continues!

Just had infomation that arthur may have been sent to prison and died there.
so I will have to find the inquest report for 1892 in Melbourne if only to eliminate it.

I'd stick with BRUMBY if I was you. His grandmother was Margaret BRUMBY 1793-1876 the daughter of John BRUMBY 1769-1834 and Susannah Coggan 1768-1823.
Margaret Brumby had 2 brothers Robert BRUMBY 1799-1873 and John BRUMBY 1797-1835 ( a Vetrinarian) who both arrived in Tasmania on the 'Mountaineer' in 1825. Later on another brother Coggan BRUMBY 1811-1882 arrived in Tasmania in 1833 on the 'William' he moved to Melbourne and died in Prahran.

Thank you will look at that a bit closer.

Here are the Inquest details.

Name: Arthur SMITH.
Died: 1892 H M Gaol Melbourne.
Age: 39 years.
Cause of Death: Congestion Brain.
Occupation: Prisoner.
Ref: Victorian Inquest Index #552.

Arthur's death was not recorded in the Victorian Deaths because he died in prison.
I expect he was also buried on the prison grounds.

Has there been a cover up?

Well that is interesting, could be my GGgrandfather I suppose I wont be able to find out.
thank you for getting the information for me. Is there another step?
Could I find out when and what he was convicted of?
Thank you for all your help

All other articles which I have transcribed from The North Eastern Ensign, I tagged "Arthur Brumby Smith' for easier access in Trove. Text which I could not read is marked with [?].
The North Eastern Ensign (Benalla, VIC) Friday 23 January 1885
BENALLA CO-OPERATIVE STORE.
A meeting of the shareholders the Benalla Co-operative Store was held on Tueday night. Present?Messrs M'Kenzie (in the chair), Bent, P Brown, Lakeman, C. Bettridge, W. M'Lellan, G. Dunlop, J. Dunlop, H. J. Fields, Jas. Dunlop, W. H. Gilken S. Arnald and A. B. Smith. Mr Coster, solicitor, was admitted to the meeting. The balance-sheet and directon report were received, after which It was resolved that a bonus of be declared. The meeting then proceeded to de with special business. It was resolved, on the motion Mr Bent, seconded by Mr Lakeman that the rule passed at 27th July 1883, limiting the right of voting to only ten votes, be rescinded. Mr Fields (in the absence of Mr Headland) moved, in accordance with notice given by the latter, that the company's business be disposed of an offer made by Mr A. B. Smith manager, and approved of by the directors, viz., 20s per share on paid up capital, and shareholders to be relieved of all liabilities at the said price (20s per share on paid-up capital).?The motion was unanamously carried. On the motion of Mr Lakeman seconded by Mr G. Brown, it was resolved that the company be wound-up voluntarily under the Companies Statute 1864. Mr Bent moved, Mr Lakeman seconded, and it was carried, that the purchaser pay bonuses, commencing February 19th, and ending on April 19th, 1885. It was further decided that [?] thanks of the meeting be recorded to those customers, past and preset who had patronised the company and also that the minutes of the meeting be forwarded to the press. The meeting terminated with a [?] of thanks to the chair. Afterward Mr Smith received general congratulations, and wishes were expressed for his success in his new venture.
The North Eastern Ensign (Benalla, VIC.) Friday 23 January 1885
From the minutes of a general meeting of shareholders in the Benalla Co-operative Company, held on Monday night, we learn that Mr A. B. Smith, who for some years past has had the management of the store, has purchased the business, which in future will be carried on by that gentleman. Mr Smith has made himiself very popular during his term as mana ger, and we hope that he will have no reason to regret his venture
The North Eastern Ensign (Benalla, VIC),Tuesday 3 February 1885
We regret to state that Mr A. B. Smith, manager of the Benalla Co operative Store, met with a rather severe accident on Saturday evening. He was wrestling with a friend, when he received a fall. Complaining of a an injury to his left leg, he was removed to his house, and Dr Nicholson sent for, when it was discovered that the small bone of his leg had been broken. We learnt yesterday that the sufferer was doing as well as could be expected.
The North Eastern Ensign (Benalla, VIC) Tuesday 19 May 1885
The silver cup. presented by Mr. Richard Louch to the Benalla Coursing, Club and which is to be competed for at their Queen's Birthday meeting, may now be viewed at Mr Robert S. Louch's shop in Bridge-street. Entries for the event close with the secretary, Mr A. B. Smith, at the Broken River Hotel, next Saturday evening; up to half-past nine o'clock, immediately after which the drawing will take place.
The North Eastern Ensign (Benalla, VIC) Friday 22 May 1885
A meeting of the Benalla District Coursing Club committee was held at the Broken River hotel, last night. There were present, Messrs Lusignan (in the chair), C. Ryan, Farrell, T. Skelton, D. Roe, R. Roe, junr., Humphries, Mossman, Jennings, Carr, D. Ryan, and A. B. Smith (hon. sec.),
The secretary stated he had received the silver cup presented by Mr. R. Louch, and which was on view at Mr. R. Louch's window, Bridge-street; also that he had received a magnificent trophy from Messrs Luke Williams and Co., to be called the "New York Hop Bitters Prize" to be run for on a future date - &c.

The North Eastern Ensign (Benalla, VIC.)Tuesday 15 December 1885
BENALLA LICENSING COURT' MONDAY, 14th DECEMBER, 1885, (Before Mr Wyatt, P.M., and Mr Roberston and Dr Nicholson, Licensing Magistraton.)
GROCERS' LICENSES. John Fitzsimmons and Antonio Ball granted.
The application of A. B. Smith was withdrawn.
The court then adjourned
The North Eastern Ensign (Benalla, VIC.) Tuesday 15 December 1885
Benalla Police Court
DEBT, &C.
A. B. Smith v F. Tank: Goods, ?1 1s 11d. Order for amount with 26s costs

I found no reference to A. B. Smith in the above newspaper after 15 December 1885 the day on which his grocer's license was withdrawn. To my mind something happened to A. B. Smith sometime after 22 May 1885.
I find it odd that there is no obituary to be found in Benalla for such a prominent man which gives me reason to believe he died, if he did in fact die, in another district.

The North Eastern Ensign (Benalla, VIC.) Tuesday 23 June 1885
The half yearly meeting of the Loyal Benalla Lodge of Oddfellows, M.U., was held last Wednesday evening. There was only a moderate attendance of brethren. The election of office bearers for the ensuing. six months resulted in the following appointments being made:?G.H., Bro. D. Fields; N.G., Bro. A. B. Smith; V.G., Bro. R. Briggs. The firstnamed was appointed to his office-by rotation, and the two latter officers were elected without opposition.
A. B. Smith was still Hon. Sec. of the Benalla District Coursing Assoc. on the 31 July 1885 but not on the 1st December 1885

Well that is very interesting and strange. I am sure you are right that he must have died in another district.
He had three living children and a wife and business in Benalla and yet after July 1885 there is no mention of him?
I dont know how you came across all that information!
Thank you for your help

Yes and he just bought the grocers.
See that license granted to Fitzsimmons and Antonio Ball. I think that is the store that Smith owned. I mean there couldn't have been other grocer shops if the town were using a co-op till 1895.
And also, getting away from Smith for a minute; Rowland William HUGHES 1865-1947 from Greta owned the champion racehorse Middlemarch ( by Stockwell) who won the Flemington Stakes, Toorak Handicap, the Standish Plate and a lot of other races. This is back in 1884/5.
Many, many years ago, for that extra bit of cash, I researched bloodstock for thoroughbred breeders. The Stockwell blood is most sought after even today.
You can imagine Rowland Hughes and his stallion at stud were very well known.
Now Rowland HUGHES 1865-1947 had a son called Rowland HUGHES 1895-1982.
The Argus (Melbourne, Vic.) Thursday 16 October 1947
HUGHES.?On October 14, at Ararat, Rowland William, beloved husband of the late Elizabeth Hughes, and loving father of Val (Mrs. J. Stapleton, Stawell), Rowland (Ararat), John (Melbourne), and Ray (Castlemaine), aged 83 years.
The Argus (Melbourne, Vic.) Monday 6 October 1941
HUGHES.- On October 4, at Ararat, Elizabeth, the dearly loved wife of Rowland Hughes, of 60 Rundle street, Ararat, and loving mother of Valeria (Mrs. J. L. Stapleton, of Ararat), Rowland C. (Ararat) John H. (Wangaratta), Raymond C. (Castlemaine), dear grandma of Bernard, Roley, Bill, Maurice, George, Billy, Betty, and Brian, late of Wangaratta, aged 78 years. - A loving mother at rest. (Interment Wangaratta.)

* 1895 should read 1885

Sorry! I should never type off the top of my head. Correction = It Was Rowland William's father that had Middlemarch. His name was also Rowland Hughes 1838-1921.
The North Eastern Ensign (Benalla, VIC.) Friday 2 September 1921
OBITUARY MR. ROWLAND HUGHES.
Mr Rowland Hughes, one of the pioneers of Greta, passed out of earthly life on Friday last, at the age of 84 years, his wife-a fine. hearted woman-having passed away before him only about 10 weeks ago. The late Mr Hughes, whose death was caused by an internal complaint, was a native of Wales, and arrived in Australia with his wife and his son Robert, in August 1860. Four years later he selected land at Greta, where he lived continously up to the time of his demise.
In his younger days he was almost invincible as a ploughman and held flve cups won by him at various times for championship competitions.
He was also a noted breeder of stock, especially thoroughbred horses, amongst the latter being Pauline, Whistle, Blokey, Oymro, Lando, Grand march, Martyr, Blodwyn, Sweep Clean and Queen Mary-all good racehorses.
He was also a keeper of several great stud horses. One mare of his, in particular-Grace Darling-won the Benalla Cup in 1878 and 1870.
He also owned the stallion Middlemarch.
In fact deceased was one of the most enthusiastic men on the provincial turf. More over, he was a councillor of the Shire of Oxley for several years, refusing the position of presidont twice. He was also one of the founders of Hanson Dairy Company. As a friend and neighbor he could not be excelled. In fact, he was one of the most popular men of his own district and for years was an exhibitor at Benalla agricul tural shows. He leaves one daughter Mrs Bowen, (UIamain) and six sons, among -the latter being Messrs. John (Greta), Rowland (South Wangaratta), Robert (Hansonville), and lsaac (Greta South). No man could be more genuinely respected and esteemed and a wide circle of friends in Benalla district will regret to hear of his explration

Thank you for that I have it safley in my folder on Smith Haley Hughes