hi berryfields,
why was Rose married as a Keefe? had she been married previously?
My number of children also differs from your 5

did Alfred have any siblings? this may help me find where he was born

gee what a coincidence,

I got your private message at the same time as I posted the above
I will now go read thoroughly what you wrote and see what I can find ...

I will respond with private messages

Hi ngairedith, not 100% sure about why Rose was married as a Keefe. I have never seen their marriage cert and i also know that when my late sister Corinne was searching the deMalmanche side she never could get a copy of Charles and Frances's wedding certificate. Rose's mother Frances ( Ward? Taylor? and Keefe? ) was married to a guy with one of the bracketed surnames ( which one i am not sure of again )( all depends on whose info i see on ancestry.com and My Heritage ) and that marriage produced 2 daughters. The story goes that one day Frances's husband said he was off to Auckland to find work and she never saw him again and so 7 yrs later she met up with Charles and well you know the rest. Also on ancestry.com where there is a lot of deMalmanche info there is a wedding date for Charles and Frances which states they were married on the 8/10/1873 somewhere in NZ. I am not a paid subscriber to ancestry.com so cannot get any further info about that. And as i said, my sister could not obtain a copy of said marriage and yet she was able to so very easily get copies of births, marriage and death certs. of many deMalmanche's yet no cert. on the marriage between Charles and Frances. If my sister had not got ill she would have got a copy of Rose and Alfred's marriage as she did say to me she was concentrating on the older ones first and was leaving nana Rose's etc til later. But she did stress to me that she could never get a copy of any marriage between Frances and Charles. Also once France's husband was "missing" after 7 yrs, legally he was declared dead and Frances could re-marry. I believe also that Frances was a Keefe in marriage and not a Taylor or Ward. I have a load of paper stuff on the deMalmanche and extended family that my sister gathered but i really need to go through it all. I remember some notes about the daughters of France's marriage to the "missing" husband and that my sister met one of the daughter's daughter and something about Frances had the g/kids names pinned to them when they came to stay so she could remember their names. Are you a relation on the Keefe side or Prime or deMalmanche side? Also are you a member of My Heritage or ancestry.com or have one of the free stuff they have? I am in both but on the free site and if you want you can look at my tree and i have down-loaded lots of photos if you want to look. Let me know.

deMalmanche family in Papakura:
I went to the papakura primer school called "Papakura Normal" during the second world war and have posted pictures on "Friends reunited" of a school reunion 1948 I am sure there was one girl and One boy named ALLEN deMalmanche if you know him I would love to catch up.
cheers Ross Davis

hi berryfields,

as I said in my private message to you last night:
... Frances Jane KEEFE may not have been legally married to Charles Joseph Maria de MALMANCHE (1840-1927).

- Frances was born Frances Jane Ward
her father was Charles 'William' WARD, her mother was Frances Jane TAYLOR

- Frances married John James KEEFE on 9 April 1867 at Akaroa Church. John was 26 (born 1841), Frances was 18 (born 1849), their witnesses were: William Ward, bushman, Robinson's Bay & Absalom Trigg, Robinsons Bay, labourer
- their first (known child) born was Anna Maria Keefe on 16 June 1869. I have found about 5 children for them but others online say 3 !!
- their 3rd born was your Charlotte Roasanna 'Rose' Keefe (1877-1962). However there was a large gap between her birth and that of her sister France Elizabeth Keefe (born 1871), so there may even be other children there

Mr de Malmanche appears mid 1870's but this is well prior to Rose's birth ???

@rossco12 - sorry cannot help you in finding/knowing where he is. He is def a relation as his name is down in the "deMalmanche 150yrs reunion" booklet. I will see what i can do about finding him by emailing a few deMalmanche rellies. Cheers, Judy

Hi ngairedith and it looks like i may need a cuppa now or something stronger! Lol.
In my family tree i have Charles and Frances having 8 children and Rose was second born. Anyway here is the list and year of birth that i have =

Charles Henry - 30/9/1874 - 1946
Charlotte Rosanna - 4/1/1876 - 22/5/1962
Josephine Adelaide - 2/3/1878 - ?
William Emery - 19/7/1880 - 1959
Alice Violet - 26/11/1882 - 1965
Ethel Amelia - 7/6/1885 - ?
Frederick Augustus - 3/2/1890 - 1922
Horace Stanley - 15/5/1893 - 24/8.1918 ( killed in Action. France WW1 )

All very confusing, esp when one looks at the birth-date of Charles Henry
I wonder if all the above have deMalmanche as their surnames ( apart from Rose )
I must get a copy of their birth certs to find out. Hopefully the UK version of ancestry can help (as that is the one i will be getting in my package).
I did a quick hunt through my sisters paperwork to see if i could find what she had written down about Frances and the daughters she had before meeting Charles. I do recall (from memory) that it was at least 2 girls but it could easily have been 3 and that the info that my sister had jotted down was a daughter of one of Frances and John Keefe's daughters (this was early 1980's and the g.daughter was at least in her 50/60's? at that time ). And according to her Rose was a daughter of Charles and Frances. I don't know. Am confused. i will see what i can find. My husband Bob was just saying to me that maybe i had better start looking at the Keefe side.x

Thanks for giving me the names of Frances's parents and name etc of first spouse.

well then best you pour another because what I have roughly is that John James & Frances had AS KEEFEs
1869 - Anna Maria Keefe
1871 - Frances Elizabeth Keefe
1874 - Charles Henry Keefe (MARRIED as a de Malmanche)
1876 - Charlotte Rosanna 'Rose' Keefe
1878 - Josephine was recorded as a De MALMANCHE at birth
1880 - William Emery Keefe
1885 - Ethel Amelia Keefe
1888 - George Edward de Malmanche
1890 - Frederick Augustus de Malmanche
1893 - Horace Stanley does not appear to be registered in either name
- when he enlisted for war his parents were listed as Mr C. J. & Mrs F. de Malmanche of Levin
- when he was killed in action 24 Aug 1918 his nex of kin was recorded as: Mrs de Malmanche, of Logie, Shannon, Ireland

remember, this is a rough draft

Hi ngairedith, I have been sorting out heaps of paper stuff that my sister collected when she was searching the Prime/deMalmanche tree. I found both Charles and Frances's death certs that my sister obtained back in Oct, 1981.
Frances one reads -
date of death - 6 July, 1922
place - Cambridge St, Levin
name and surname - Frances Jane deMalmanche - married - female
name and surname of father - William Ward
" " " " mother - Jane Ward (nee Weir)
where born - Birmingham, England - lived in NZ for 68 years
then the part about was deceased married, which reads there were two marriages which they wrote as marriage A and marriage B
marriage A - (married at Akaroa) husband James Okeefe and Frances age was 17 and marriage A produced (nil) sons, (2) daughters.
marriage B - (married at Akaroa) husband Charles Joseph deMalmanche and France age was 25 and marriage B produced (4) sons, (4) daughters
states what ages the children were at time of her death and has their ages as -
(B) males - 46,41,34,32
(A) daughters - 57,55 - (B) daughters - 45,43,39,37
The sons when Frances died, there would have only been two (2) living as Horace and Frederick died before Frances.
Charles death cert - marriage part - "To Whom Married" - Frances Jane Ward and has 3 sons ( would be only 2 living at time of death) and 4 daughters and their ages at time of death.
The Mrs Malmanche from Logie, Shannon, Ireland is a mystery! On one of the Roll of Honours that my husband Bob has amongst all his navy and war files has Horace's next of kin as Mr C.J deMalmanche and Mrs F deMalmanche.
The rest of his death cert is full name, age, etc etc.

Have Charles Henry's birth cert - DOB - 30/9/1874) and states his parents as Charles Joseph and Frances Jane Keef (nee Taylor) and also have Josephine Adelaide's - DOB - 2/3/1878) and parents - Charles Joseph and Frances Jane deMalmanche (nee Taylor) and Frances was 27 at time of birth.
All very confusing to say the least.

Am hoping a Ray Harris reads this as the private email address he sent me does not work